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Hello All

 

I have recently appealed a PCN which was issued to my vehicle while it was parked in a residents bay 'without a valid permit on display'

 

My dog had somehow managed to claw the permit from its holder whilst he was left in the car for a few minutes (barking at someone - probably the CEO!)

 

Anyway, it was lying on top of the dash when I got back clearly visible, but not 'displayed in the prescribed manner' (see attached letter)

 

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Free file hosting by Savefile.com

 

I pointed this out and sent them a photocopy of my valid permit but, typically mean and malicious, they have stuck to their guns.

 

In their letter they have cited the Traffic Management Act 2004 but I have had a quick look through and can't see anything in that legislation which sets out anything about displaying permits, although there is something in Parking Act 1989 (c. 16) which I found on Google, but it's not that clear to me what is meant by the 'prescribed manner' that they are referring to in their letter.

 

Is it worth making formal representations when the NtO comes through or should I just cough up?

 

Cheers in advance

 

H

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Just looking at the pics they have given you it maybe that your parking bay might be non compliant with the regulations.

Can you go back to the scene and take pics of both ends of that parking bay, showing the markings at each end of the bay, also any signs at the side of the bay on the sidewalk.

Also pics of what is written on the deck at side of this bay.

It seems like Brighton has a shed load of non compliant bays.

When you take pics of the signs on poles, also measure the distance between each sign.

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Hi

Thanks for the message - I can see the bay from my flat and it seems that there are no markings at the ends of the bay, there is only one sign on a solitary pole which is in the middle of the bay on the kerb (there is no pavement) so shall I measure the distance between this and the ends of the bay (wherever they are?!)

 

There is nothing written on the side of the bay.

 

I can post some pics if this would be useful - pls let me know

 

Thanks again

 

H

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Okay

 

Here are links to four pics I took of the bay showing no end markings and the post with the only signage relating to the bay.

 

Parking Bay Pictures, Parking Bay Images, Parking Bay Photos, Parking Bay Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

Are these sufficient or do I need to take more?

 

Please let me know

 

thanks in advance for your help

 

H

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Can you take some pics, from the other side of the road, looking up the road, pics of the end of the bays,

It just looks like a long line of cars with dotted lines on the outside.

You took your pics too close , try taking a shot of the bays with no vehicles in the parked in the bays, with a more panormaic view.

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Can you take some pics, from the other side of the road, looking up the road, pics of the end of the bays,

It just looks like a long line of cars with dotted lines on the outside.

You took your pics too close , try taking a shot of the bays with no vehicles in the parked in the bays, with a more panormaic view.

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Hi

 

It's almost impossible to get a pic of this bay when empty as it's always very busy but if you look at pics 1 and 3 these are to show both ends of the bay and you can clearly see the absence of markings on the road (which I think I'm right in saying would make this bay non compliant on its own) the other pics show the sign on the pole and the markings on the road on the carriageway side of the bay (there are none on the kerb side).

 

It may look like a long row of cars but if you look closely you will see that it is in fact a bay for two vehicles only i.e. one double bay standing off from the road as opposed to a long line of bays.

 

I would be grateful for opinions on whether the lack of road markings at each end render this bay non compliant or not...

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Is this location a place where work has been done on the pavements?

To me it looks like some dotted lines on a length of road, but it would be worthwhile getting a copy

of the traffic regulation order from the Council to see what is what with the bay.

One the face of it , it looks like a non compliant 1028.4 parking bay.

If that is what it is, that reason alone means the bay and the restriction cannot be enforced.

Unless anyone knows better.

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Hi

 

Thanks for your post

 

I agree (from what little I've been able to find out) that it does seem to be a non--compliant 1028.4 bay

 

I have done a rough sketch (very!)

 

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to try to give some idea of the layout of the bay and the road markings etc which are pretty odd (Check out the wavy yellow line!)

 

Hope this helps - thanks again for your comments

 

H

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Hi

 

Thanks for your post

 

I agree (from what little I've been able to find out) that it does seem to be a non--compliant 1028.4 bay

 

I have done a rough sketch (very!)

 

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

 

to try to give some idea of the layout of the bay and the road markings etc which are pretty odd (Check out the wavy yellow line!)

 

Hope this helps - thanks again for your comments

 

H

 

The bay looks prety duff.

 

I wonder if the CEO took a photie of the ticket showing your dog there.

 

There is an ajudication similar to this regarding the deffinition of ''displaying''

 

It maybe worth asking for the traffic order for this bay and also ask for the pocket book notes of the ceo and any photies of the incident. It may transpire that the windows were not properly checked or noted.

 

Under the dft guidlines the authority have powers of discretion and should publish the policy document for public viewing. I would get hold of this or maybe check thier website for one.

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If this bay was lawful it would be a 1048.4 sheet 2.

From your sketch, the nearest thing this is to a legal parking bay, is the dotted lines down the side of it, thats all.

This council are hoping you will just pay up and that will be the end of it.

 

I am no expert, but that white line may as well be on a roll of bog paper, that is as near as it would be to a lawful enforceable traffic line/sign.

 

Just be advised as to what course of action you should now take on this matter.

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Righto thanks for all the comments - I'm going to wait for the NtO to arrive and then make a formal representation on the grounds that the bay is non-compliant but in the meantime I'll write to them to request the information you suggested I should ask them for...oh boy are they going to have it in for me now - I have successfully appealed every PCN they have given me (at least 15 - I've lost count now :o)

 

This is nothing more than a stealth tax and I'm fighting it all the way

 

I have a friend who used to be a CEO and he says they have a board in their office where they put up the reg no's of 'persistent offenders' or more accurately people they want to target

 

that'll be me then...

 

Incidentally there is a very useful template letter for appeals on the grounds of non-compliance of bays and some other very useful info to be found here:

 

Making a challenge

 

I'll keep you posted on what happens

 

Cheers

 

H

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Hi

 

 

There is an ajudication similar to this regarding the deffinition of ''displaying''

 

 

Do you know where I can see a copy of this?

 

 

Under the dft guidlines the authority have powers of discretion and should publish the policy document for public viewing. I would get hold of this or maybe check thier website for one.

 

 

 

Can you suggest a way to ask for the policy document - what do I refer to it as?

 

 

Thanks in advance

 

H

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Hi

 

 

 

Do you know where I can see a copy of this?

 

 

 

 

Can you suggest a way to ask for the policy document - what do I refer to it as?

 

 

Thanks in advance

 

H

 

If you have been issued a ticket for not dispalying, you should send them a copy of it. They should have a policy document for intances such as pay and dispaly tickets, blue badges, permits which have either fallen, blown over, been dislodged or something into the footwell of your vehicle.

 

If a valid copy of the ticket, blue badge or permit is subsequently submitted as part of the appeal then this should be the end of the matter.

 

As part of your appeal you should ask if they have such a policy document and if not why not. It will go against them at tribunal.

 

 

Phone them up and ask if they have such a policy

Edited by nero12
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no end markings! See here:

 

 

Making a challenge

 

H

 

There is plenty of misleading advice on the internet and that a classic example. Mr Bentley fails to mention many points and the one that concerns you is that if the bay has a kerb at the end it doesn't require transverse lines.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi All

 

Just received a response to my letter requesting (quote)

 

A copy of the policy document relating to the powers of discretion you hold under the DoT guidelines.

 

Copies of pocket book notes made by the CEO at the time of the alleged offence and any photographs of the incident which you have not already provided and

 

A copy of the traffic regulation order relating to the parking bay where the alleged offence took place.

 

This has just arrived:

 

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

 

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

 

I don't think they've complied fully with this request as I don't have a copy of the TRO (only a mention of the 'relevant part') or a copy of the policy document

 

Could anybody advise me as to the best way to proceed with this?

 

I intend eventually to appeal on the grounds that the bay is non-compliant

 

All advice gratefully received

 

Cheers

 

H

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If you have been issued a ticket for not dispalying, you should send them a copy of it. They should have a policy document for intances such as pay and dispaly tickets, blue badges, permits which have either fallen, blown over, been dislodged or something into the footwell of your vehicle.

 

I have requested a copy but it has not been forthcoming

 

If a valid copy of the ticket, blue badge or permit is subsequently submitted as part of the appeal then this should be the end of the matter.

 

Yes one would think so but I did send in a copy of my residents permit but they still wanted to do me for failure to display which seems very petty and mean spirited but that's B&H Parking Services for you.

 

Can I appeal on the grounds that their refusal to cancel the PCN even though I have provided a copy of my permit is vexatious (as in "frivolous, vexatious or wholly unreasonable")

 

Cheers for the advice

 

H

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