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    • Their letter to you was rather condescending and even rude  "-in order to allow a reasonable driver to be notified of the terms and conditions". So f they do decide to go ahead from here remember that when responding to their Witness Statement as they never get that right. 
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    • We still have not seen either the Notice to Driver or hte Notice to Keeper PCNs. As these are legal documents that can help  your case could you please post them up. I did ask last year if you didn't retain the NTD that you send UKCPS an sar. Did you do that? If you don't have those two vital PCNs [not the reminders] can you please send off an asr now. Sometimes the rogues use Trace to confirm their address is till valid with a view to sending out a letter of Claim. If you have received the SAR could you please post up its contents.
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    • Thank you Restart for posting the original PCN-it is the one that has to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. And thanks to Nicky - I hadn't noticed the word Reminder on the first PCN and wondered why it was posted on the 29th June but Restart said he had received it on the 24th. The original PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act Schedule 4 whicch means that you as keeper are therefore not liable for the charge. The driver is the only one now liable and as you haven't appealed they don't know who was driving so you are both in the clear.  It is non compliant because they have not included the actual parking period just their own ANPR times that obviously include driving from the entrance to the parking place and later driving to the exit. Section 9 [2][a] refers- (2)The notice must—(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates; They have also failed to ask the keeper to pay Section9 [2][e]  (e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges Sadly although both of you are in the clear there is nothing yoycan do to bring this to a quick close. So you will just have to read piles of letters containg threats and unlawful increases in the amount they are charging. They can all be safely ignored knowing that your case will be thrown out should it ever get to Court. Though Dave is right that a letter to Starbucks might get you a quick cancellation. All you have to watch out for is a Letter of Claim which if received let us know and we can advise a snotty letter to send back to them. The snottier it is the more likely they will decide not to go to CourtIn the meantime read up other cases which have been successfful or ongoing cases esprcially ones similar to yours to understand the way these vile companies operate. Do not contact them as  you might let slip who was driving and that at the moment is your strongest asset.
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Hi,

 

I started a 5 year construction degree course about a year and a half ago and I am also working full-time in industry. My company is sponsoring me through this, paying my fees of approx. £1000 a year (£1500 for final 3 years of course)

 

However, I am tired of the company and really the course as its not for me and I want to try something different, perhaps teaching, even if I need to complete/convert the course.

 

My question is, although I have always seen them paying my fees as something more like a topper-up of my salary each year, a colleague doing the same course a year ahead of me has just resigned and is now expected to repay all their fees. I vaguely remember there being something in the contracts about this when I joined, but I thought it was to stop people leaving as soon as they are qualified after 5 years, the deal being you must remain at least a year after that.

 

I am also not sure if I would be held to this if they were to make me redundant, it would seem highly unfair if I were to be fired and also lumbered with the debt of degree fees. I have also recently learnt that someone in my circumstances earning less than £16,000pa doing my part-time degree is eligible for grants to pay the course fees anyway, but I don't think it can be backdated.

 

I would be very grateful if someone could outline the legalities of all this.

 

Many Thanks

 

Scott

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Hello there. I think it would help us to know what your contract says about the course fees. That is where the company is likely to look when they decide whether you owe money for the fees.

 

Do you have a copy with you or at work that you can quote us from?

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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They have only mentioned it a few times and shortly after I started there was a situation where the boss said they were thinking about ditching me and the other trainee and pooling our salaries for someone more exerienced. Also I do many tasks each day where one mistake could cause a breach of confidentiality leading to gross misconduct and being got rid of.

 

You could rephrase my question like that and unfortunately I don't have a copy of my contract and as its a small company it will look strange if I ask for another copy, especially since someone just left. I do have the means to sneak myself a copy however from my signed office version that will be signed somewhere.

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Sssamson, by law you should have a copy of your contract or particulars of employment, so hopefully you can find something at work tomorrow, if you're going in?

 

That should mention this sort of stuff, and then we can start trying to unravel what they can and can't do.

 

It may be a small company and that can make life more complicated, but the law still applies to them.

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Me again. I'm slightly confused by your comment about grants being available for course fees, as quick google search didn't bring up anything helpful. Do you remember where you saw that?

 

It sounds quite like the earnings level when graduates have to start repaying student loans, etc.

 

I apologise if I've got the wrong end of the stick. It's a long time since I was a student, and I don't claim to be up to date.

 

Please tell us much as you can. My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I'll see what I can do tomorrow.

 

One of my peers on my course is not getting his course paid for and initially started paying for it himself, but then found out he could get the grant. There is also a £250 grant for books!

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Right guys an update, I got hold of my contract and here as the first clause is the topic of training:

 

Training

 

"As a trainee, you will be undertaking a course of study and this will be funded by the company. You will attend a further education establishment which may be a college or University for one day per week, for which you will be paid.

 

Should you fail to complete a course of study or terminate your employment within 12 months of the date of completion of a course of study then you will be required to reimbuse the company for the full cost of the course of study. "

 

That sounds like what I have said above and correctly remembered, they are trying to protect themselves from someone leaving straight after completing their course. Also 'if you fail to complete the course' I imagine means if you fail/leave the course while employed by them.

 

It appears to me that I can leave or be made to leave at any time as long as (to their knowledge) I am still on the course and outside 12 months of completion.

 

Does anyone disagree?

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Hi sssamson. I'm confused about this. Have you completed a course or not? As I read what you posted above, if you leave within 12 months of completing the course, you are liable.

 

Can you explain what you mean by Completion please?

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Yeh. Me.

What the clause means is that, for the duration of the course, you are liable for the cost of the course if you leave the company.

You are also liable for the cost of the course if you leave the company within 12 months of completing the course.

 

You haven't completed the course. So, if you leave, you'll have to reimburse the company for the course fees.

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Hi sssamson. I'm confused about this. Have you completed a course or not? As I read what you posted above, if you leave within 12 months of completing the course, you are liable.

 

Can you explain what you mean by Completion please?

 

 

I am only 1.5/5 years through it! Far from what I would call 'completion'.

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Yeh. Me.

What the clause means is that, for the duration of the course, you are liable for the cost of the course if you leave the company.

You are also liable for the cost of the course if you leave the company within 12 months of completing the course.

 

You haven't completed the course. So, if you leave, you'll have to reimburse the company for the course fees.

 

 

How do you gather that? What if I leave but stay on the course? Effectively I'm not failing to complete it, just no longer working. It is also vague in that doesnt specify a course or university so if I convert to another course at a closer uni would that be covered?

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The purpose of an employer sponsoring an employee to do a training course is to invest in that person. If you leave that company before you have completed the course and completed 1 years additional service with the company, or you fail the course, they will expect you to reimburse them for the cost of the course.

Leaving the company but continuing on that course or any other is of no significance.

Why did you think they were paying for the course?

Do you walk into cake shops, reach over the counter and grab whatever you want, then walk out without paying?

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Should you fail to complete a course of study or terminate your employment within 12 months of the date of completion of a course of study then you will be required to reimbuse the company for the full cost of the course of study. "

 

 

 

You are liable to costs if...

 

a) you fail a course of study,

b) terminate your employment within twelve months of completing the course of study...

 

If you leave the company now, you will have to reimburse the costs...

Edited by Bigredbus
Typo...

---Aut viam inveniam aut faciam---

 

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When I queried that clause before I signed the contract they said its because they had been burned by employees leaving like that before.

 

I wouldn't go into a cake shop, get a cake and leave without paying no. But I wouldn't expect to go into a cake shop, pay for the cake, recieve the cake then leave but be asked for the icing back. The way I see it is they've paid for my course for the length of time I've been employed and if I leave they no longer pay for it. It would be like them asking for my salary back for the days I was at uni for. Generally the whole contract is joke anyway since it doesn't accurately reflect my job or the running of the company, but is that often the case?

 

If it is definately the case that I am bound by those clauses, how would it apply if they were to terminate my employment?

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I don't know if your contract covers this, but if they make you redundant, say, they may agree not to reclaim your course fees.

 

I have to say that if you signed a contract, you're probably bound by it, even if you didn't understand what you were signing at the time.

 

I don't really understand your icing analogy. As Elpulpo said, they are investing in you as a future employee, so maybe they paid you over the market rate and then budgeted for the course fees in addition, because they thought you would stay with them and be productive.

 

What do you mean about the contract being a joke, please?

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I don't know if your contract covers this, but if they make you redundant, say, they may agree not to reclaim your course fees.

 

I have to say that if you signed a contract, you're probably bound by it, even if you didn't understand what you were signing at the time.

 

I don't really understand your icing analogy. As Elpulpo said, they are investing in you as a future employee, so maybe they paid you over the market rate and then budgeted for the course fees in addition, because they thought you would stay with them and be productive.

 

What do you mean about the contract being a joke, please?

 

I meant by that analogy that its as if I have done something and been paid for it, but now am being asked for the money back.

 

Last year I was being paid under adult minimum wage :p (was only 20 at the time) after a pay rise I'm now in the bottom 12th percentile for my level, was getting paid 25% less than an employee with 5 months more experience because they came from a job paying more, average wage amongst my uni peers tends to be about £2000-3000pa more than me on top of uni fees.

 

By a joke I just mean that its a cut and paste, one size fits all contract adapted from previous employees that they have just amended slightly for me so lots of the other clauses are irrelevant or inaccurate.

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