Parking Bay legal, challengable or not?

[Alitizi]

Hi all, can someone please give an opinion if they think this bay is leagl. There are 2 points which I think I may be able to challenge tickets.

 

1. The bay is 20 metres long, the sign is legal but the only signpost is only just under 5 metres into the bay at one end, ap 1/4 way in, I thought it had to be close to the centre, it's nowhere near close to centre.

 

2. The double yellow lines at one end join the white bay markings, at the other end they are seperated by a drain and so leave quite a gap, some drains.

 

The double yellows are unlikeley to be legal because they cross a broken white road (end of road) line at each end.

 

Thanks folks

 

 

[ClampingKing]

Completely clutching at straws. Nothing wrong with having the sign where it is. Nothing wrong with the end of bay lines either.

[sailor sam]

20 metres long!! You sure it's not for coaches or something! Joking aside, at each end of the bay, should be marked by a double white line from the kerb. I would suggest that a bay of 20 metres should have 2 signs.

 

See here;

 

How to appeal unfair parking and loading tickets - Ticketfighter.co.uk

 

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[Jamberson]

To what extent are you in doubt as to what the regs are for that location?

 

If the answer is none at all, I would suggest it's not worth fighting.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

20 metres long!! You sure it's not for coaches or something! Joking aside, at each end of the bay, should be marked by a double white line from the kerb. I would suggest that a bay of 20 metres should have 2 signs.

 

 

Are you sure about that?

[sailor sam]

Are you sure about that?

 

Yes, it there are individual spaces within the bay and at 20 metres I would think there are.

 

See here;

 

How to appeal unfair parking and loading tickets - Ticketfighter.co.uk

[Alitizi]

Yes, it there are individual spaces within the bay and at 20 metres I would think there are.

 

Hi Sam, it is one ling bay without any individual spaces within it.

 

I travelled through 2 different boroughs today and their long bays like the one in my pics (without individual bay separation within the bays) both rhose boroughs had double single lines as you describe. I have not found a bay like mine in your links.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

In my experience there are many bays longer than 20m not marked as single spaces. Perhaps it varies from LA to LA.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I travelled through 2 different boroughs today and their long bays like the one in my pics (without individual bay separation within the bays) both rhose boroughs had double single lines as you describe. I have not found a bay like mine in your links.

 

The double white end lines were permitted in the past and if painted then they remain compliant.

[Alitizi]

To what extent are you in doubt as to what the regs are for that location?

 

As regards the yellow lines one being joined or v close and the other a compative distance from the other end via a drain - I got that from something on TV when the guy who has been fighting tickets for years was running through some of things, what he pointed out, and showed a couple of examples, was that any yellow lines at each end must be a consistant distance apart at each end or both yellows joined at each end, he said (and showed) that if one was joined or very, very close to joining at one end and at the other end the yellow line was not the same then the bay would be illegal. I am sure thats what he said and showed but was about 5 years ago, possibly a bit more, I dont know if the laws changed.

 

As regards the post position, I read somewhere recent that if a bay is 30 metres apart there must be 2 parking reg posts in it but if its 20 metres like this one then the reg post must be in the middle or very close to the exact middle, this bay the reg post is no more than 1/4 the way in but I dont know where I read that.

 

I knew nothing about the double (or single) white lines at each end till I read it here, I am dont seem to be good at reading these regulations on official sites, I find them confusing so packed with intricate detail I juust get lost.

[Alitizi]

The double white end lines were permitted in the past and if painted then they remain compliant.

Sorry Bernie I dont understand that. What I understood in your fist post was that the law said (in long bays like this one) there had to be a double white line at each end, regardless of wheather they were there before or not. In the case of this bay, there are no double white lines at either end and no remains of there ever having been any at any time, so I am a bit confused about what you wrote above and your first post, can you clarify, thanks

[green_and_mean]

Being frank you are not going to win on anything you have said so far I cannot be bothered to look up the rules on positioning of posts but they are just guidelines anyway if its a bay of about 20m and has a post within in it at some point that is sufficient. Generally all bays now have single lines at the end unless they are pay and display with spaces for each car. The sign may be wrong which is far more likely than expecting to get off because a drain wasn't painted yellow.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Sorry Bernie I dont understand that. What I understood in your fist post was that the law said (in long bays like this one) there had to be a double white line at each end, regardless of wheather they were there before or not. In the case of this bay, there are no double white lines at either end and no remains of there ever having been any at any time, so I am a bit confused about what you wrote above and your first post, can you clarify, thanks

 

No, the current rules are that if a bay is marked as individual spaces it should have double transverse lines at the ends. If it is one bay then, irrespective of length, it has to have a single transverse line at the end.

 

However, if it is an old bay, painted before the current regs came in then single bays had a double transverse line at the end and if they were compliant when painted they are compliant now.

 

So to be sure on all this you need to get the traffic order to check that the bay is of the correct dimensions according to the order and is also in the right place and you also need to find out when it was last painted.

 

Fighting PCNs on non-compliant signage can be a time-consuming process. The time spent can rarely be justified against the level of the penalty but is very satisfying when successful and cases can be and are won.

[Alitizi]

far more likely than expecting to get off because a drain wasn't painted yellow.

 

My point was not the drain, it was that there was an inconsitent distance between the yellow lines on one end of the bay and the other end, as I said, it was a person who fought tickets made that point on TV but it was a few years (maybe 5 or 6) ago he said at that time that the law said they must be a constant distance or they are not valid in law, I just wondered if anyone knew about it.

[green_and_mean]

My point was not the drain, it was that there was an inconsitent distance between the yellow lines on one end of the bay and the other end.

 

and the reason for that is......because the drain is not painted.

[Alitizi]

and the reason for that is......because the drain is not painted.

 

 

Yes, but, a) many of the drains in the area are painted over, some are not. b) I would argue that the council should have painted the parking white lines to unclude the drain as thay have in many, many places. c) the lines (or signs) are not the only thing but I will have to write that out later. I wanted to try to support the other reason (main reason) with other things if the main reason fails.

[ClampingKing]

You haven't mentioned the reason for your questions OP. Did you get a ticket? If so for what contravention?

[Alitizi]

On XX 09 I received 2 tickets, someone here said that particular council’s licence had run out at the Info Commissioner’s Office and had not been renewed, in Jan I confirmed with that office that the council was not licensed at that stage and they were not licensed on the date of issue of the PCN’s.

 

What I would like to find out now is what exactly is it illegal for them to do, I mean can they divulge this to a court from their computer data base? What exactly is the licence they did not have for, I mean is it a simple case that they cannot, in law, pass anny details on to bailiffs because of the data protection act or what? it had taken them 2 months to reply so I guess they had spent time on some tricky legal points

 

Any comments would be helpful right now.

 

My letter to MD

Dear Sir

I am recipient of 2 illegal PCN notices placed on my car on XXXXXXX 09.

 

XXXX council’s registration with the Information Commissioner’s Office expired on 18/12/09 and has not been renewed, LBH&F therefore has not registered to administer on street parking let alone to issue PCNs with the Information Commissioner’s Office as required under section 17 (1) of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

In view of the above facts please inform your parking control of the situation.

 

 

 

Response

The main gist of their response was that I was in a legal parking bay.

 

Followed by;

I have considered what you said but this does not amount to grounds for cancellation of these PCNs. I am satisfied that the PCNs were properly given within the law therefore you remain liable for the outstanding charges.

.

[Jamberson]

Your post above raises a lot of issues. The previous question to you was where you are at in terms of your own case, and without saying so, you have implied you have bailiffs chasing you. Is this correct?

 

Depending on how far things have progressed, you may be too late to bring up the details of the lines on the road in any case. Where are you at?

 

Any challenges to the PCN or the bailiff warrant need to follow the formal appeals routes - I'm afraid a letter to the MD will not help in this instance.

 

If you do have bailiffs pursuing you, have you received correspondence previously from the Council about the outstanding PCN(s)?

 

Have you ever made a formal appeal? What was the outcome?

 

To answer some of your specific queries:

 

What I would like to find out now is what exactly is it illegal for them to do, I mean can they divulge this to a court from their computer data base?

 

Try to be clear on what's going on. I very much doubt the Council has divulged personal data to the court. Courts are generally not involved in this process. And if they have, I very much doubt it's illegal - but I presume that's not what happened.

 

What exactly is the licence they did not have for, I mean is it a simple case that they cannot, in law, pass anny details on to bailiffs because of the data protection act or what?

 

That may or may not be the case. It would need to be subject to a civil action by yourself, and would not mean that you are not liable for the outstanding charge. It's a seperate issue - though connected of course. You don't say when you received the PCN (you can - it won't compromise your position) but according to your info, the data protection issue only arose at the end of 2009 - is this after the alleged breach?

 

it had taken them 2 months to reply so I guess they had spent time on some tricky legal points

 

More likely they just have a big backlog to deal with!

[Alitizi]

Your post above raises a lot of issues. The previous question to you was where you are at in terms of your own case, and without saying so, you have implied you have bailiffs chasing you. Is this correct?

The PCNs were issued in late Dec, I wrote in early Jan both to MD & their appeal box number. No bailiffs are chasing me

 

Depending on how far things have progressed, you may be too late to bring up the details of the lines on the road in any case.

 

I received the reply back from MD this week, he actually wrote that if I paid the penalty within 14 days I could pay at the original fine and not any excess charge.

 

Any challenges to the pcn or the bailiff warrant need to follow the formal appeals routes - I'm afraid a letter to the MD will not help in this instance - Have you ever made a formal appeal

Whoever it was pointed out the council was not licensed also said to write to MD, I wrote to both the MD and their appeal section but I think I had now better write to appeals again and lodge a formal appeal, someone on here is convinced the tickets were illegal, can’t remember who, I think this situation is unusual.

 

the data protection issue only arose at the end of 2009 - is this after the alleged breach?

 

At the time of the PCN’s (2) their license had already expired, they had no licence at time of issue.

[Alitizi]

Below is the link to the post where this came up, Fair_Parking was the poster and what he said made a lot of sence, so any comments anyone after you read the original post.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/240485-pcn-lawfull-opinions.html#post2677791

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

You talk a lot about "writing". Have you received NTOs for these PCNs and have you complied with timing and process for responding?

 

So far as I am aware any actual or alleged breach of the DPA is not a ground for cancelling a PCN. Remedy for a breach of the DPA is entirely separate.

[Alitizi]

You talk a lot about "writing". Have you received NTOs for these PCNs and have you complied with timing and process for responding?

 

I have no idea what an NTO is, this is the first I heard of it. Yes I complied with the timing and process for responding.

 

So far as I am aware any actual or alleged breach of the Data Protection Act is not a ground for cancelling a pcn. Remedy for a breach of the Data Protection Act is entirely separate.

 

Yes thats helpfull, possibly an appeal first and injunction against them breaching the act on the grounds they were not licensed to carry out the threats of passing info to baliffs etc as written on the ticket, I would imagine that any such threats implying passing on data should also be followed by a clear statement on the ticket that they were not authorised by license to do so, that may or may not edge around the freedom oof information act.

[Jamberson]

If you want to challenge the charges, you must follow the appeals process:

 

1. PCN is issued to you - you have 28 days to write and contest it. NOT to write a letter to the MD - to write to the appeals team at the address given on the PCN, with your statement as to why the PCN should be cancelled.

 

2. You get a reply saying yes or no to your appeal.

 

3. If the reply says no, or if you did not appeal, and you still do not pay, you will be sent a formal document called a Notice to Owner - this is the NTO referred to above. It instructs you to deal with the matter.

 

4. You have another 28 days to reply with an appeal, or pay it. Again, you must appeal through the appropriate route - a letter to someone else will not be considered as an appeal.

 

5. If you appeal, you await a decision by post - if you do not, you either have to pay, or extra charges start being added on.

 

- so this is how it works. If you are following this process you are on the right lines. If you are not, then the charge will remain outstanding and will escalate further if you do not appeal or pay it.

[Alitizi]

Thanks for that jamberson.

 

1. pcn is issued to you - you have 28 days to write and contest it. NOT to write a letter to the MD - to write to the appeals team at the address given on the PCN, with your statement as to why the PCN should be cancelled.

I did wriite to the appeal section within the time frame but I did not use the word appeal, so I can write for an appeal now anyway.

 

Below is what I wrote to the appeals section;

 

Dear Parking Services,

I am recipient of 2 PCN notices placed on my car on Dec 09.

 

The PCN numbers are, PCN XXXX and PCN XXXX

 

 

Councills registration with the Information Commissioner’s Office expired on 18/12/09 and has not been renewed, XXXXX therefore has not registered to administer on street parking let alone to issue PCNs with the Information Commissioner’s Office as required under section 17 (1) of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

In view of the above facts please consider this a representation challenge against any penalty charge.